An email from Terramor and a few other notes – June 15th 2022

Here is the text of an email recently received by a number of Terramor neighbors. It was sent in the afternoon of Wednesday June 15th. Read on after the email text for a few more updates.


Dear Mark

First and foremost, thank you to everyone who joined us for our meeting and walk through of the property last week. We really appreciate your input and participation in these discussions. We are committed to continuing an open and honest dialogue with the neighborhood.

We understand there are concerns about the project as related to density, proximity to the neighbors, noise, traffic, wildlife, pesticides, water and sewage, and more. We are taking all of your feedback into consideration.

Density:
To clarify, we learned about the opportunity from the town to add additional sites just days prior to our last community meeting. Our decision to propose 75 units took many factors in to consideration; land management, adhering to our light-on-the land techniques, water usage, guest experience and infrastructure costs.

Rather than wait to submit the new conceptual layout with added sites to the Saugerties Town planning board, we made a conscious decision as a team to discuss this layout with you, our neighbors first. We understood that it would be a surprise to many of you, but wanted to be forthcoming so there were not any feelings of being misled when you saw the final design submitted to the town planning board. Because of this, we understand the surprise and frustration many of you felt during last week’s meeting. Our intent was, and still is, to be as open and honest with each of you during our planning process.

Proximity to Neighbors:
As a direct result of our walking the property, we are now looking at relocating a number of tents near neighbors on Raybrook to other areas of the resort.

Noise, Traffic, Wildlife, Pesticides, Water & Sewage:
We want to remind everyone that we have a very strict noise ordinance at Terramor. This will be followed at this property and is a condition of the special use permit. We are also currently working with traffic engineers to ensure the safest entry point and will complete additional studies per their direction.

While we have yet to identify pesticide or insect management for this particular property, we will work to find eco-friendly, safe solutions as an alternative to chemical management. Finally, we in the final stages of evaluating various systems with regards to water and sewer. We will have more information for everyone at our next meeting regarding water and sewer as the various systems are currently being evaluated.

Guests & Special Events:
Our resort caters to families and adults seeking to enjoy the outdoors, comfortably. A typical guest at Terramor will explore the area during the day and come back in the evening for a meal at the Lodge and to relax and unwind either by campfire, poolside or in the privacy of their tent. On average, a Terramor guest will spend $137/person a day in the local community during their visit. Terramor guests are individuals who simply want to get-away, enjoy nature and, in many cases introduce their families to the wonder of the outdoors.

We do plan to host limited weddings and retreats at this location. With that, special events will adhere to our noise ordinance and be required to stay on property to participate in the events. Eliminating the need for Terramor to have additional parking areas and lessening the traffic implications.

What’s Next:
We will be submitting a preliminary conceptual site plan and project details to the Town of Saugerties planning board for their July 19th meeting. The board will then provide technical feedback to us which may require additional work or studies on our end. All the information we submit will be public knowledge. Once the town planning board is satisfied, they will schedule a public hearing. At that time, they will make the decision regarding the special use permit.

We will be holding a third neighborhood meeting on Tuesday, July 26th to review our submitted site plan and project application. At this time, we will share any comments received from the planning board, answer any additional questions and hear your feedback.

Please check your emails soon for more information on this meeting.

Until then, please direct any questions or inquiries to Jenny McCullough at communityrelations@terramoroutdoorresort.com

Best,

Jenny McCullough
Director, Brand & Operations
Terramor Outdoor Resort


A few more points:
1) Before this email went out Jenny called me and we had a chat about the content. She said she would also be calling other neighbors. She asked for my assessment of the walkthrough. I directed her to the post before this one and gave her a quick précis. I emphasized the proximity to Raybrook and traffic issues. We spoke about Teramor seeking out a relationship with DOT to make the traffic issue top of mind there. Especially with regard to sight distances, speed limits and the Glasco/ 212 junction. She mentioned that they are conducting another traffic study and that this would be part of their submissions to the Board.

2) Today (Wednesday 15th) I stopped by the Town Hall and looked again at the Terramor public file. There was nothing new in it since last I visited and posted the documents seen here. I ran in to Kevin Brown, Assistant Building Inspector, and asked about the number of units. He confirmed that it was the his office which clarified the 50/75 units issue to Terramor. Our previous assumption that it was the County was incorrect and I apologize for the error. He was careful to point out that they merely told that developers that code could allow up to 75 tents/sites, but that the Planning Board would have final say over that number. He was also careful to state that the code was derived from rules about camping and RV establishments with transient occupancy. There was a very particular reason for this and I can share privately what that was. He also said that the dormitory for workers was allowed, and a lodge without residential units.

3) With regard to the timing of submissions from Terramor to the Planning Board: If they want to be before the Board July 19th, they have to submit all required paperwork by July 5th. We will do what we can to get those documents on to the site as quickly as possible. We’ll shoot for July 6th. The July 19th meeting will be public and, while we may not yet be able to comment in person, we encourage everyone to show up and listen carefully to the submission. This will be useful for the informal July 26th meeting with neighbors mentioned above in the email from Terramor.

Some takeaways from the June 7th Terramor presentation and site walk

Note: Observations below are my own and likely do not conform to everybody’s experience of the presentation and walk-through. Conversations were happening between neighbours and Terramor, the engineer, and the Board planning consultant. Different folks will have had different encounters and takeaways will vary

June 9, 2022

On June 7th several neighbors of Terramor and other interested parties gathered in the South Peak Vets parking lot, under gloomy and damp skies. A presentation was made by one member of the Terramor staff and one member of the land planners working on the project.

  • The first, and most disconcerting, point offered was that the project’s proposed scope has expanded from 50 tents to 75 tents. This was a result, we were told, of the “code enforcement office clarifying the number of units permitted on this land”. According to Terramor, the discrepancy was as a result of the earlier talks with code enforcement not precisely spelling out that the proposed “lodge” was not residential. Apparently, were the proposal for a residential lodge, code would have allowed 50 units, but given that the proposal is for tents separate from the lodge, code for this site will allow up to 75 tents. It was not apparent to me which code enforcement office this was, but I assume it was the County. (EDIT: It was the Town)
  • Reaction to this announcement was, predictably, one of surprise and anger. Many of the assembled company were alarmed that the deal had changed, and with no notice at all. The Terramor representative stressed that she had only found out about it a few days before and there was regret that such a substantial change had not be communicated earlier. As the questions came thick and fast, she tried to explain that the economics of the proposal were marginal at 50 tents and that 75 tents was more reasonable, given that code allowed it. Reaction to this assertion was skeptical, at best. A rambling discussion followed, touching on many of the familiar and salient areas of neighbourly concern, water, septic, pesticides, traffic, wildlife, etc. Tempers were somewhat frayed at times, with neighbours wondering if Terramor were, indeed, listening to local concerns.
  • The presentation continued with reference to the new sketch plan. Several other changes were noted. Primarily, the relocation of the worker’s dormitory. This was moved away from the previous location near the Cottontail emergency exit and further up the hill. It was suggested that more tents meant more staff and this was acknowledged, vaguely. A description was given of how the extra 25 tents were added to the site. The land planner stressed that the fifty foot distance between tents was still achieved and that the average was slightly higher than that.
  • There were many questions about the distance between the tents nearest the property line up by Raybrook. Discussion ensued about code for the buffer and the planned approach to the issue. It was resolved that the walk would affirmatively include a visit to that area so that we could see for ourselves. The claim was made that the nearest tent to the property line was 85 feet away.
  • The location of the entrance to the site appears to be nearer to the Woodstock side of the site than the last approved project, a decade ago. We were told that this location had been suggested by the Terramor traffic consultants, but that the land planner present was not expert in this area. The reason given for being as close to the Woodstock side as possible is that the project wishes to minimize ground and wetland disturbance. Please see a separate post here for more about the traffic issue: http://southpeaknabe.com/terramor-and-traffic/
  • Terramor acknowledged that they had not met the filing deadline for the June Planning Board meeting and said that they were hoping to file for the July meeting instead. Submission deadline is July 5th for the July 19th meeting
  • Some folks decided to leave and the walk commenced. While the choice may have been made for expediency’s sake (footwear etc.), it was instructive that they did not take us up from the proposed curb cut and over the (extensive) wetlands at the foot of the property. We walked up the significantly drier adjoining property (between the Vet and Terramor) and thence across to the proposed access road.
  • Terrain varied from swampy to firm-ish. “Map-checks” were made along the way, with the land planner indicating the route of the road and other proposed parts of the project. The “Welcome Center” was pointed out and it was again stressed that guests will park in one of several car parks but walk to their tents from there. Tents are generally not accessed directly from the paved through road. Paths to tents will be made of permeable material, including fabric, gravel and other engineered aggregates. Mention was made of the desire site tents so as to cut down a minimum of trees. Tents will be built on wooden platforms. “No, we do not propose concrete footings”.
  • Along the way, different conversations were held and comments made. I did not hear all of them. It was repeatedly stressed that this was all very much a work in progress and that engineering and planning details would change constantly as this difficult land presented new challenges.
  • Septic: Will be dealt with by pumping it from individual tents, likely to a central above-ground facility. This would probably be pumped at the end of the season. “We are still working on this”
  • Well-water: Thinking is that there will be three or four wells. Possibly feeding an above ground tank and distributed to tents via underground piping. Wells appear to be 200 to 300+ feet deep. So far, they propose to use the test wells currently on site. System might be blown out during the winter so that there is no water in it to freeze. Especially since trenches might be shallow enough to be frozen. “We are still working on this”
  • Water run-off: Road will be tilted, with swales at the sides. run-off will likle be fed in to the existing wetlands. There are currently no plans for added ponds. (This means that mosquito suppression via aeration of standing water is not possible. They are not adding standing water to the site and they cannot add aeration to existing wetlands)
  • Electric: to individual tents via trenches.
  • When we arrived at the top end of the site, furthest from Rt. 212 and nearest Raybrook, I volunteered to stand on the exact spot of the tent nearest the property line. The groups was then able to see the geography more plainly. From my vantage point I could see two houses, though not clearly. It was clear that they were there, but features were indistinct at best. I could see marker flags indicating garden beds and, possibly, the property line. Foliage was somewhat dense, given the time of year, but a proper screening hedge will certainly be necessary. A discussion ensued as to how to keep guests from wandering out of the property and into neighbour’s yards. It was apparent that Terramor will have to instruct guests very firmly, carefully, and repeatedly about not going where they should not. It was agreed that at least one tent had to be moved away from the property line.
  • There was some confusion about the Planning Board protocols. The representative of the Town consultants gave a concise explanation of the differences between the Planning Board meetings and the Public Hearing. Basically, the first formal Planning Board meeting allows the project to be presented and starts an ongoing process of information gathering, technical and otherwise, by the Board. This ongoing process also allows for input from the public and any other outside interested parties. Later in the process, the Board may schedule a Public Hearing, at which all are welcome to comment.

    Here are two further short explanations:

    From the consultant who walked around with us:

    Experts are directly hired by the Planning Board to review a project if the Board feels it is necessary. For example, the Board will hire its own traffic engineer to review and comment on the applicant’s traffic report and so forth. The Board relies on these hired experts, and comments from involved agencies such as NYS DEC and DOT, to identify glaring issues, permit requirements, or items that would need to be addressed for an approvable project. The Town Code and NYS Environmental Quality Review Act provides a framework for this investigation.

    The public can also provide comments from their own expert, and present those comments during public hearings.

    Formal meetings are the only time that the Planning Board can discuss the project as a quorum without violating NYS Open Meetings Law, so allowing the technical review to proceed month by month at these meetings is important to the Board’s decision making process.

    From the Planning board Secretary:

    The Planning Board’s procedure is to allow anyone to speak from the public with concerns/comments only at the meeting in which a public hearing is open. If the Planning Board has an expert that they have hired for review/advice then they may invite that person/persons to speak at a given meeting. Anyone is welcome to send in a letter addressing their concerns at any time during the process for the Planning Board to review and take into consideration. The first meeting is generally to familiarize the Planning Board with the project and let the Town Planner and Planning Board members address initial concerns or suggestions. A public hearing will only be scheduled when the site plan is complete enough, which is determined by the Planning Board with the Town Planner’s guidance. A public hearing can be kept open, with the Planning Board’s approval, if concerns are raised by the public that need to be addressed with an updated site plan or additional information.

  • As the walk wound down and we arrived back at the Vet’s, the Terramor representative suggested that there be more informal meetings. Probably in the time after their formal submission to the Board and before their formal appearance. At the moment, they hope to meet the July 5th submission deadline for the July 19th meeting.

Comments are open and tightly moderated.

Note: I have certainly forgotten some parts of the afternoon and some specifics. Your input is appreciated. You can comment publicly, or contact me with corrections and additions

Terramor and traffic


June 09 2022

An email arrived this morning:

[snip]Will an updated traffic study be performed by any of the government agencies on the proposed Terramor project?
Is it advisable for residents [snip] to obtain an updated traffic study, such as the one proposed by [redacted]?

Mark’s response to the above question (lightly edited for context):
Here is a question I posed to the Town planning consultant who was with us on Tuesday (I also asked the same question of the Planning Board Secretary) :

When a new large development (in this case Terramor) has its first appearance in front of the Planning Board, does any other entity have the opportunity to address the Board at that first formal meeting? Not individual members of the public, but, say, an interested expert addressing particular parts of the formal technical submissions made to the Board

The consultant’s response to Mark’s question:

Experts are directly hired by the Planning Board to review a project if the Board feels it is necessary. For example, the Board will hire its own traffic engineer to review and comment on the applicant’s traffic report and so forth. The Board relies on these hired experts, and comments from involved agencies such as NYS DEC and DOT, to identify glaring issues, permit requirements, or items that would need to be addressed for an approvable project. The Town Code and NYS Environmental Quality Review Act provides a framework for this investigation.

The public can also provide comments from their own expert, and present those comments during public hearings.

Formal meetings are the only time that the Planning Board can discuss the project as a quorum without violating NYS Open Meetings Law, so allowing the technical review to proceed month by month at these meetings is important to the Board’s decision making process.

The Planning Board Secretary’s response to Mark’s question:

The Planning Board’s procedure is to allow anyone to speak from the public with concerns/comments only at the meeting in which a public hearing is open. If the Planning Board has an expert that they have hired for review/advice then they may invite that person/persons to speak at a given meeting. Anyone is welcome to send in a letter addressing their concerns at any time during the process for the Planning Board to review and take into consideration. The first meeting is generally to familiarize the Planning Board with the project and let the Town Planner and Planning Board members address initial concerns or suggestions. A public hearing will only be scheduled when the site plan is complete enough, which is determined by the Planning Board with the Town Planner’s guidance. A public hearing can be kept open, with the Planning Board’s approval, if concerns are raised by the public that need to be addressed with an updated site plan or additional information.

My conclusion, therefore, is that both things can be true. Private consultants *can* be hired, but the Board can also do this.

It is highly likely that if citizens tell the Board, early and often, that traffic is a concern, the Board will add that to the list of issues they want their own consultants to address.

[When it comes to traffic,] I think that there are two areas of concern here. One appears to have taken up more oxygen and the other has already been identified by the Town consultants.

First, the Rt. 212/Glasco intersection: While we all know that the Glasco/212 intersection poses concerns, efforts to take up more time and oxygen with this here are likely wasted. I do not think that we can easily link it directly to the Terramor project. It is simply too far away.

Second: the issue of the speed limit on Rt. 212 outside the proposed project entrance and the sight distances thereof. It is this issue which has already been identified by the Town consultants as an area of concern with the preliminary sketch plan. The distance from their proposed curb cut to the turn on the Woodstock side is **just** to code for a 55 mph speed zone. This will continue to be a concern and mitigation for this will be tricky. The Board will be well aware of this. This is definitely something we can and should link to the project.

It’s important to note, of course, that Rt. 212 is a state road and that the Town (and the Planning Board) has limited authority over the infrastructure and protocols on that road. Indeed, when the drainage improvements were made to Osnas, the Town Highway Dept. and their engineers were at pains to point out that the new point of failure will be the culvert under Rt. 212. There was absolutely no appetite on the part of anyone involved for discussions with the State DOT about them improving their own culvert.

I believe the most we can hope for with regard to the intersection issue is that the Planning Board will communicate our concerns about it to the State and make it part of the litany of complaints and issues contained in any proposal the Town makes to the State about Rt 212.

As to the issue of the sight distance, the Board might make them move their curb cut closer to Saugerties. They could also make the curb cut set back further and drastically cut back the foliage on either side to improve sight lines. The consultants have already suggested the latter. They have also suggested that the Town ask the State to make the speed limit 45 (likely from the Transfer Station all the way to Glasco). Of course, this runs into the issue mentioned above about the appetite for any discussions with the State.

— ends —

Comments are open and tightly moderated